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Monday, April 24, 2017

CXIII. The Atheist Dilemma

Is God real?  This is the question that actually makes or breaks all life.  If God is real then we need to find out what He wants.  If God is real then we need to understand what our future holds.  If God is real then we need to try and do what we can to follow Him.  If God is real we have all the answers to life that we need.  If God is real then we have purpose.  If God is real we have a relationship.  And there can be more that is added to the list but, if God is not real then to be honest nothing matters.  If all we have is this life and no consciousness after we die then why even live this life?  But because there is a God, all things matter.  This causes a dilemma for the atheist.  Most atheists believe in nature as the ruling essence of existence (although they will not acknowledge that specifically) with science as their religion (although they will argue they have no religion) and evolution as their savior. But the same three things that are the basis of their beliefs are also the same three things that are their biggest obstacles.

They cannot answer three questions, realistically.  Yes, they can rationalize their thoughts and use human logic to disregard religion and belief in God, but it always falls short and they don't even know it.  Here are the three questions:
  1. What lies on the other side of the universe?  Or Where does the universe end?
  2. What is the hardest thing to believe in about God?
  3. Where did all life begin?
What the atheist will do with these questions is they will take the first one and say it is a misleading question.  They will claim that you are limiting them in their choices, or they will say "the question implies there is something beyond the natural world, so it is invalid", or they will give you some pet answer that atheists are now using about multiple universes.  That will be discussed later.  For the second question, they will give you reasons about what they dislike about God or what they dislike about what the Bible says. That is not answering the question being asked.  Sometimes they will say you can't prove a negative so they will not answer.  And of course some may say the pet atheist answer of "who created God if He created everything" and think they have a valid point.  This will be discussed later.  Then the third question they will usually hijack.  This one they will either answer with, "I don't know and neither do you", or they will say "I don't know...but it doesn't take a Creator to have life".  Or they will go the whole evolutionary route starting with conditions of the universe and amino acids, and RNA, and energy sources.  Again this will be discussed later.

WMAP
Raisin Bread Analogy
So what is the answer to the first question?  There are only a two choices in reality.  Either the universe is infinite or the universe is finite.  There is a problem for the atheist here.  If the universe is infinite then it goes against the science they believe in.  NASA says it is not infinite.  Steven Hawking says it has a beginning.  The latest scientific model explains that the universe is conical. Cone Expansion Earlier models say it was like a loaf of bread, expanding where it can pushing the oldest stars and clusters of the universe out to the brim. Raisin Bread Theory  But both of these go against infinity as a choice. Even worse, if the universe is infinite then it actually explains one of the issues atheists have with God.  How can God be infinite?  Who created Him?  How can atheists believe what they do if something natural can be infinite and not believe something that is more powerful than nature not be infinite?  The second answer by atheists to this question says that the universe came from another universe and those came from other universes, called Multiple/Parallel Universes.  But the issue doesn't change.  One of them has to be the original.  One of them has to be the first and therefore it all had a beginning and is still not infinite.  So the second option is the only option.  The universe has to be finite.  So, what lies on the outer side of the universe?  What is on the outside of the cone or raisin bread?  Their answer:  absolutely nothing.  Well, that is exactly what the Bible says. Thought XLV.  Strike one.

So, what about the second question?  There are infinite (see what just happened) answers here.  But what usually comes up are things like: if God is real then why do bad things happen?  Or, if God is real then why does the Bible say this or that?  Well, the problem is, even though these questions may have actual answers, it is not answer to the question being asked.  The question is, what is hard about believing God exists, not what issues you have with God.  Here is this dilemma for the atheist. Atheists can not use the argument of if God is real then why do bad things happen because how can you blame God for things if He is not real?  Nature to an atheist is the all-powerful force driving life. If God is not real, there would still be death, caused by nature (the essence of all living to the atheist). yet they still believe in nature.  So if nature causes death then by the same argument they gave about God, they should not be believing in nature.  This is not to presume that death is good because "God did it" or say that death is OK.  That is an issue even Christians have a hard time with and even people like Job had issues with this topic.  No one knows why God does things at times.  But that is not the question.  God is still an option of existence no matter what or how you feel about God.  If you believe that way then you are an atheist but a better term for you would be anti-Theist, Atheism. You just hate God, but turn it into a disbelief.  The second answer they say for this question is you cannot prove a negative, so the burden is on the believer.  But if that is the case then why do so many atheists go to the internet, forums, and discussion boards just to say, "there is no God"?  Why do they burden themselves by going to these places?  In both cases, they are really acknowledging the existence of God.  The most common answer is, "if God created all things, then who created Him?". The answer to that lies in the first question.  If space, which is natural, can be infinite then so can a super-natural being.  Strike two.

Finally, the third question is one they think they have an answer to.  Where does life begin?  This is where their savior comes in--evolution.  But some of the other answers may be, "I don't know".  That is a good answer but they will feel the need to add, "and neither do you".  Their ego will not just let them say, "I don't know".  Well, we do.  Another answer would be, "a Creator isn't needed for life to begin".  But, that does not answer the question.  Even if evolution was true, it still had to have its start somewhere.  But, it is not true, Evolution.  And for the Christian, evolution is not an option since God did not use it, Theistic Evolution.  Many scientists have stated that life points to a designer.  The atheists now have come up with new theories like RNA World and the Origins of life,  RNA World but again, they only show life itself, not the actual beginning of life.  In the end they can't admit but nevertheless is true, they don't know where life begins.  But we do.  The Beginning.  Strike three.

21 comments:

No Doubt said...

First of all, how many "ifs" do you think you used in your post? :-)

Honestly, I think you hit the nail on the head, when you said, "Their ego will not just let them say, "I don't know"." The average atheist comes across as "all knowing". Therefore, how can an all knowing atheist accept an all knowing God. In their mind, there's only room for one kid on the block, themselves.

Their ego and the resulting arrogance comes out, especially when you show them that their beliefs require faith, thereby making their faith-based belief system, a religion.

Tim said...

Well, the word if shows a correlation. If-then.

Yes. The thing that they think makes them better than others (minds) are the things that stops them from really living. Their belief requires more faith because they are banking their whole eternal life on a risk.

This is of course does not mean in any way that they are bad "people" or have horrible morals but the ones on Yahoo forums are atrocious in their attacks verbally. EGO.

No Doubt said...

I don't know Tim. Aren't morality and civility closely tied together? If a person isn't civil, most of the time, their morals can be legitimately questioned.

Tim said...

To you and me perhaps. But there are many atheists who are not "immoral" in terms of human standards. Gandhi was "moral" by human standards. On the other hand many people who are Christians still have human desires and issues they deal with. There are more Christians in prison than atheists. Some claim only 1% in prison are atheists. But, yes, I would still agree with you. If a person is not civil then they most certainly can be questioned about their morals.

Paul G said...

Hi Tim, You said, "If God is real".

The first thing we need to ask is, WHICH GOD is real ????
Is Allah real ? or is Krishna real ? what about Jehovah or Yahweh etc. are they real ?
Well, I think that they are ALL false gods who can do nothing, and if you believe in anyone of them, you will perish with them.

Those gods cannot give you life or insight into the Scriptures and His creation, and neither can they teach you the truth or testify to the truth.

There is only ONE God who IS the TRUTH, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, He alone is the TRUTH (John 14:6) and any other is a liar.
If you believe in Him ALONE, you shall be saved, if you don't believe in Him you will perish, regardless what you believe.

Tim, Everybody in the whole world believes that God exists, even the atheists, for God has made it EVIDENT to them that He exists in that which He has created, and is clearly seen around them so that they are WITHOUT excuse (Romans 1:18-22).

You see, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ NOTHING really matters, even if they would know all the answers to your questions, it still would not profit them anything.

I think that the most important step in everyone's life is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Only IN Jesus Christ is all wisdom and knowledge, and IF we are IN Christ Jesus, we have the mind of Christ and know all things.

For that reason I am preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ so that He (Jesus) would lead them into ALL the truth.



Tim said...

Paul,

The first part I will skip over...not going down that circular pattern and you know that.

I agree with all the rest except for one thing. If they answer the questions they will have to admit that their thinking has holes in it. It will let them understand that God is a possibility. And when there is possibility there is opportunity. And when there is opportunity God will knock.

Paul G said...

Well Tim, the first part is the most important part of ALL knowledge concerning God, and you should not skip that part.
That part will profit you and everyone else very much.

I understand that that part causes the most controversy and anguish in every believers heart, but that is just one light burden which we have to carry and the Lord Jesus will NOT let you go on this.

As I have said many before, that the knowledge of God is faaaar above every other knowledge, and NO man of God ought to err on that most important question.
To neglect that knowledge has severe consequences and I do not want you or any brothers of mine to suffer, but to be saved from all afflictions and suffering.

Even in your Church you should ask every brother that most important question, and you will be surprised and astonished of the answers you will get.

No Doubt said...

Paul, I agree with Tim's last comment. However, if I may correct your last comment, it is not the Lord Jesus, who leads us into al truth. It is the Spirit of God that leads us into the truth. In John 16:12-13, Y'shua said,

"I still have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now. However, when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth."

Tim said...

Paul,
You know why I am skipping over it. This thought is not about that subject. If someone wants to talk to you about that topic then they can go to your blog. You try and hijack every post into that topic. I will not do that. You have been shown to be in error and I will not go down that path. I will post your remarks but will not respond to your circular argument that gets nowhere.

Tim said...

Keith
Stay in topic.

No Doubt said...

Tim, Go, as the Spirit leads. Do no be afraid. Truth is never anything to be afraid of, even if you think it uncomfortable. He needs to be presented the truth of the Word.

Tim said...

You know I believe that but we have already done that EVERY TIME he responds. This thought is not about his topic. It's about atheism. The atheists needs to understand the possibility of God before we move on. He wants to jump into his circular argument (that gets us nowhere) and then refuses to answer the questions we ask because he said it gets us nowhere. The reader gets it. He doesn't, but go to his site and let him know about there, which you have done. We have shown him to be in error of how he adds to scripture and how he changes things to fit his man-made doctrine and how he refuses to understand that English was created in 1400's. If this topic was about who God is or what His name is then do it...again. But this is not the thought and I refuse to let him hijack it off the topic. People want to know what they are dealing with when it comes to atheism in this thought. It's not being afraid of him, but tired of him.

No Doubt said...

Tim, I'm not saying to actively engage in his inane and clearly non biblical circular reasoning, but to always engage in a truthful and sometimes correcting discourse. What if he's under the influence of Satan or one of his cohorts? ('Im not saying he is) isn't God always reaching out to all, even those with inane circular reasoning. Rebuke, using the Word, and then cut off that that line of conversation and let the Word of God and His Spirit work. By the way God's Work is tiring, sometimes, but very rewarding.

No Doubt said...

As for the Atheist, their arguments are just as illogical, inane and tiresome as Paul's. I don't see you shutting them down. I treat all the same, with the truth. There are times, as the Spirit leads, we are to dust the dust from our sandals. If God has lead you to that point with Paul, then go as the Spirit leads. As for me, the Spirits says counter with the Word of God, at every turn.

Tim said...

Keith,
That is exactly what I am doing. He can post all he wants and I will post it as I said. I just will not be suckered into his conundrum. If the topic was rainbows he would bring back his topic. If the the topic was caterpillars he would bring back his topic. I am not shutting him down. But just like right now, this comment is not on topic and who wants to reads that? :)

If I want that topic then I will go to his site or start a thought that involves it. The same with my house. I only let certain topics in.

But, you nailed a good point. When he said "Is Allah real ? or is Krishna real ? what about Jehovah or Yahweh etc. are they real? That is the same argument atheists give but they will just add one more name....Jesus to the list.

The point of this whole thought is that atheists have a dilemma that we do not. We understand the choices. They do not. They claim logic as the key but they are blinded by their own intellect.

Oddly enough I am currently involved with an atheist named...Paul...on Yahoo right now who is not quite so smart as he thinks. That is no offense meant to our friend Paul that is here, just a coincidence. I invited him here but he refuses because I am "stupid".

Paul G said...

Hi Tim, you said, “This thought is not about his topic. It's about atheism.”

Well Tim, I don’t comment on topics like rainbows and caterpillars.
I have responded to YOUR topic ‘atheism’, saying that every atheist believes in God. Well, do you want me to say WITHOUT EXCEPTION ?
For God has made it EVIDENT to EVERY human being that He IS, including atheists, they already know the possibility of God.

ALL atheists are liars just like every human being on the face of this planet (apart from the Lord Jesus Christ).

Atheists and all mankind does NOT need to believe in a god, they ALREADY believe in a god.
If the Lord Jesus Christ said that He as made it evident to them that He exists, then WHY do you try to convince them that God exists ?
And the most important question is, WHICH God. ?

THEY, just like YOU need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE and then they will be saved.
You ought to present the Lord Jesus Christ to this EVIL and WICKED world, or else they will perish.
Believing in a god does NOT save them, they will only get religious.
We already have a whole world full of churches who are religious, we don’t need any more hypocrites.

And NO ! Not the Siamese triplets (the trinity), or Jehovah, or Yahweh and Allah etc. those are ALL false gods who cannot save those lost atheists. They need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone and only then they will be saved.
That is the good news (gospel) which you ought to preach Tim.

Paul G said...

Hi Keith, you said, ‘As for the Atheist, their arguments are just as illogical, inane and tiresome as Paul's. I don't see you shutting them down.’

Very well said my friend :-) and thank you !

Atheists are not stupid people, even they are created in God’s image just like you and me, and even they can see the differences and the hypocrisies among all those who claim to believe in God.
And the so called christian churches are a disgrace to the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth who have long ago abandoned the Lord Jesus Christ and turned to other gods called Jehovah, Yahweh and whatever they like.
And that is the reason why the NAME of God is blasphemed among the nations.

Keith, you don’t believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord God, but Tim does believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God.

Even among both of you is a BIG difference in the God that you believe.
Tell me, what is the difference between you, Tim and an atheist ?

Tim said...

Paul,

I was only making a comparison. Every time you comment it always goes back to the same topic. We already know how you feel about that topic. Can you just have a conversation about how you feel about the topic being discussed? I assume you are married, I apologize if you are not and that became offensive. But if your wife asked you what you like for dinner, would you say "I am not answering that because it won't profit anyone and by the way Jesus is the only name and it has to be English".? I hope not but that is what you seem to do with all topics. Yes, Jesus is the answer and the only way to the Father, but when we talk to atheists they will not listen to you until they understand that God is a possibility in the first place. This thought is about how they respond and their problem. So I ask stay in topic. I am not shutting anyone down or out but I just won't go down the circular path.

So with that said, atheists all claim they don't believe in God but I know kind of like you said that they all know there has to be something. But I feel they are blinded by their own intellect and they talk themselves out of knowing, with a little help from satan. The universe alone is enough to believe but what they do is try and "prove" everything with some kind of scientific formula and that is not the way God is. Having faith is a blessing. Using faith is rewarding. They do not have faith.

Most atheists are probably more agnostic. That is why I wrote about the ideas of God on my home page up at the top to describe the different beliefs. I hope you take time to read those.

I don't try to convince them...I try to open up the possibility in their mind. I let God do the rest. Atheists tend to be intellectuals so I try to reach them or witness to them based on intellectualism. I show them science in the Bible because God created all scientific laws. Once they open up their mind to the idea then I present to them why Jesus is the Lord.

You said, "Believing in a god does NOT save them, they will only get religious.
We already have a whole world full of churches who are religious, we don’t need any more hypocrites." Very nicely put.

I can assure you that Keith believes that Jesus is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and Creator and Savior of this world. I have known him for 20 years. Trust me. I now know you for almost two. I know you feel the same way. Although I know him personally.

But your last question is what atheists say to me all the time. But guess what? They would add you to the list. And here is what they would say: Christians believe in one God and one God only, they believe in one less god. I get that all the time. So my first step is to get them to know that God is a possibility.

No Doubt said...

Tim, I tend to categorize atheists, not as intellectuals, but as rationalists. Rarely, do they allow logic into the conversation. They rationalize their beliefs and positions to the point of ignoring the facts. I approach Atheists the same way I do with everyone else. I try to find some common ground with admitting there isn't any proof that proves or disproves the existence of God, and ask the question, "With being ignorant of more than 95% of what's really out in the universe, how can you say that there is or isn't a God. If they are willing to admit their ignorance, I then show them the evidence that points to God and let the Spirit work on them.

No Doubt said...

Paul, I have never said that Y'shua/Jesus isn't our Lord and God. I have tried to help you understand what that really means. As Tim says, you go into your rehearsed mantra, without listening.

As for Atheists, I agree that most are not stupid. However, most are ignorant. They are agnostic and blind.

Tim said...

I can't disagree. I say intellect because that is what they rely upon. They use rationalization for sure. And that is only to satisfy their insecurities about their beliefs.

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