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Saturday, November 12, 2016

CXII. The opposite of Love is not Hate

Word association tests are used by many therapists to see how people feel or what their personalities are like to get answers to some issues they may be dealing with.  Usually people say the opposite of what the word is given to them.  Some other answers are of course acceptable because many can still see the association.  And then there are those weirdos who are not connected with reality and have some kind of strange response that makes the therapists think twice about them.  Such as:

WORD GIVEN
NORMAL RESPONSE
UNDERSTANDABLE RESPONSE
ABNORMAL RESPONSE
Black
White
Color
Neon
Day
Night
Monday
Tooth
Rich
Poor
Money
Polar Bear
Open
Close
Sesame
Clock
Boy
Girl
Scout
Duck
Smart
Dumb
Alec
Verb
High
Low
Dope
Blast



So, if someone did the test with you and gave you the word love, the normal response would be hate. An understandable response would be emotion. An abnormal response could be anything from Aardvark to Zyklon B.  But none of these answers actually tell us what the real opposite or even the real meaning of what love is.

The real opposite of love is not hate.  The real opposite of love is apathy.  Love is not just an emotion so it can't be hate.  Love is not just a feeling, so it can't be associated with food or items we say we "love".  Love defined in the Bible is found in 1 Corinthians 13.
  • Love is patient, love is kind.  It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.  It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.  It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.  Love never fails.
Although love is a noun in the essence of our existence, love is a verb when it comes to human interaction.  Love needs to be shown.  It requires action.  The only way to show love is through what you do.  So if that is true then the only way to not show love or to show the opposite of it is to not do anything---apathy.  Parents who neglect their children do not love their children.  Teachers who do not take time out to teach students do not love the ones they ignore.  Spouses who do not SHOW any love to their partner do not love their partner.

Here is the problem with the world.  Some think love is an emotion.  The problem with this is that emotions change with situations.  And when the situation is over they feel they have lost love and they replace it with another emotion.  Or they search for more emotional love and start the cycle all over again.  They will never be satisfied.  The world thinks love means having sex.  They go from partner to partner looking for something that can never be there.  They think love and marriage are interchangeable when they're not.  Younger people think it has to be part of relationship.  They give themselves away only to be hurt when they realize there is more to this world or that their partner no longer wants them in that way.  Guilt and loneliness sets in causing eventually feelings of self judgement and low self esteem.  The world thinks love is conditional.  No.  Love NEVER fails.  It will always be there.  It is there in times of trouble, pain, and disparity.  They try to change things about themselves to fit in.  They go through fads.  They try and "find themselves" because they can't understand that pure love is unconditional and forever but they can't slow down enough to see it, going from situation to situation.  The world thinks love is about tolerance.  No.  Tolerance means you do nothing about something.  And the opposite of love is to not do anything--apathy.  Many think tolerance and acceptance are the same thing but they're not.  You can accept someone for who they are, hence you are patient with who they are.  You are kind to them.  You do not dishonor them for who they are.  But tolerance on the other hand means you give into their actions.  That is apathy.

This is why many people get mad at Christians because we are not tolerant of certain actions, thinking we're not showing love.  No.  We have love and we should should it but intolerance is not hate.  It is just the idea that we do not have to abide by certain standards others want us to live by.  It's the same thing on the non-religious side, only they expect us to have to live by what they say.  They then preach that we are bigots for not tolerating what they do.  But Christians have the biggest hate because we are told to love and yet we neglect those who are hurting.  We see the "wrong doings" in their lives but we forget to see the person.  Christians do not show enough love.  We have the greatest example:

John 15:13
  • Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
Love is the only thing that will break down barriers.  Laws of man can not do it.

42 comments:

Paul G said...

Hi Tim, we all know that the opposite of hate is love, therefore the opposite of love is also hate.
I have not met anyone yet who does love someone unconditionally.
Do you love your wife unconditionally ?
I don't think so.
God does not even love unconditionally, if He would love unconditionally, then He would not utterly destroy those in hell if He would love them.
God loves the righteous and hates the wicked.

The definition of love.
1 John 4:8 and 16, God is Love !
1 Cor. 13:8, Love never fails !

If you believe that Love failed even once. If just one person is in hell who was loved by your god, then your god is NOT Love.
100% success rate that never fails is by definition Love.

Tim said...

Paul,

If you use the standards of man then love and hate are opposites like I kind alluded to in my post. But if you use God's standards they are not. Do I love my wife unconditionally? No. But that is what makes me human and not God. His love is higher than mine.

Are you saying God hates people? If so, then He hates all of us! And He should because we are all guilty of sinning and disobeying and impure. We all deserve death. Scripture does say that God hates the wicked with a passion. So I agree with some of your statements.

Love and hate though are not opposite. Love and apathy are opposite. Love and the absence of God are opposite. When God sends one to hell He removes Himself. He removes the love. That is a different topic.

How can you say God is love yet not live unconditionally? That is an oxy-moron.

Paul G said...

Hi Tim,
Love and hate have to be opposites, otherwise we would not know what love is.
Perhaps it's like sugar and salt, we would not know what sugar is, if we could not compare it with salt, it is the knowledge of the salt which gives the sweetness to the sugar.

That is exactly the same with God's love. If God would love everybody the same, then His love would men nothing to us as His children.
Perhaps, if your wife would love you the same as any other man in the whole world, her love would mean nothing to you, her love for you gets the strength by the rejection of other man.

You said, 'Love and the absence of God are opposite. When God sends one to hell He removes Himself. He removes the love.'

You see, that would not be unconditional love.
If God removes His love, then it's not unconditional.
To be unconditional He would need to love the sinner in hell. That's unthinkable.

God's standard of love has been passed down to us and we love the same as God, because God's love has been shed abroad in our hearts, which is not agape love (unconditional).

Tim said...

I will disagree Paul. You kind of said yourself with the wife example. You said she rejects or removes all other men. That's how I know she loves me. It's not that she hates the other men. She removes her love from them.

The absence of love is hell. Without God we are hell-bound. When the Father left Jesus and He cried why have you forsaken (or left) me, is the feeling of hell in a way. Jesus became all sin and God removed Himself and Jesus as a man was alone.

I am sure you will disagree but that is what this blog is for.

Paul G said...

Tim, I hope you don't mind me disagreeing with you ? but if love is removed, it is called hate. Hate is the absence of love.
And God did not removed Himself from the Lord Jesus. Remember, Jesus is the Lord God Almighty and there is none beside Him.

Also, I don't think that the absence of love is hell, hell is a place of torment and suffering and it is the absence of blessing, or 'heaven'.

Tim said...

Of course not Paul. We can always disagree on certain issues. I just happen to believe if Love is removed it is not hate it is the absence of God, just like you said hell is the absence of blessing. I can agree with that statement. Look deeper into what you said.

But back to the original point, I feel what you are saying. I know why you believe love and hate are opposite. I explain that in my Thought posted. To the human mind/dictionary it will seem the logical response. Biblically speaking it is not. Everything God does is out of love for us, even His commands. Remove love, and you don't have hate...you have nothing...apathy.

But, yes you can disagree all you want.

Paul G said...

OK. my brother, I will disagree not for the sake to be disagreeable, but for the sake of truth.

You said, 'if Love is removed it is not hate it is the absence of God,'

You see, God is omnipresent at all times, He is everywhere and sees all things and nothing is hidden before Him, there isn't a place where He is not. Yes, I even know what you are thinking at this point :-)

And yes, I believe that hate is the opposite to love, because any other way does not make sense to me.

Even the Lord Himself said that He hated Esau and loved Jacob. That was before they were born, while still in the womb He hated Esau, meaning that He that He didn't liked Esau at all, and that was with the absence of love.
There was no love there for Esau, because the Lord hated him just as He has said.
I'm sure that the Lord could have used another word than hate, but He used that word because it is the opposite to love.

Tim said...

Will God be in hell? I don't know, but I sure don't think so. I think we can take Adam and Eve as analogy. When God left (or kicked them out), death, pain, sorrow, and all things that plague the human race entered the world. I think that once judgment comes and He separates Himself from those who denied Him then things worse than death and pain will happen.

I respect what you said, "I believe that hate is the opposite to love, because any other way does not make sense to me." I can accept that. Some things will not make sense to me either especially if I think of God with my mind/intellect like the world does. As I have said I know why you feel the opposite of love is hate but that's only in our language.

God hated Esau and Jacob He loved. Sure. God did not care for what Esau was or was doing. You have brought up the womb issue before with these two and we have discussed that this is not Biblical, only interpretation. Yes they struggled but He did not hate either one of them. Esau was hated only as a result not as prerequisite. Have you ever loved someone but hated what they did? Did you hate them?

Just pretty sure this one of those disagreeable moments. If you are going to bound your faith by the English language then you will always limit things your faith can do.

Paul G said...

Tim, you said, "Will God be in hell?"
I'm sure about that, Is there a place where God is not, if He is omnipresent ?
And what is hell ?

Concerning Jacob and Esau, you said, "Yes they struggled but He did not hate either one of them."
If God would not hate either one of them, then He would not love either one of them.

You see, love without hate has no meaning, but the Scriptures said that He hated Esau, before he had done good or evil.
And shortly after He explains why, "In order that election might stand".

The doctrine of love is the same as the doctrine of election. Within the doctrine of election must be an opposite, a rejection, otherwise election is meaningless.
Election is just like love, NOT according to their deeds, but according to God's choice.

Tim said...

Paul where does it say that God hated Esau before he had done anything. Please do not use Genesis 25:23. It only said the elder shall serve the younger. That is not hate that is God using prophecy to show His power and plan.

But on the same note: Notice Isaac loved Esau, does that mean he hated Jacob? I mean if you love one then from your perspective that means you must hate the other. Love and hate can't exist for the same person right???????

What is hell? In reality we don't know. Because there are a few words that mean "hell" if you use English only. Sheol, the grave, "the lake of fire", Hades, Gehenna as examples. And they are used in the Bible. But they are not all hell. The lake of fire is definitely different.

All we know is that it is a place of torment, gnashing of teeth, where the worm never dies, and stuff like that. But is God tormenting them? Why are they gnashing their teeth? Is God really doing that to them? Or did He place an angel to in hell to do all the torment? None of that makes sense in the standard we know of about God. Hell is a separation from God. They are gnashing their teeth because the presence of God is not around. We can see bits and pieces of that here on earth. When we walk in a situation where we know God does not approve or in a place where we know God is not wanted we feel the evil. We feel fear. We know a small feeling of what it is like without God. That is why Jesus screamed out on the cross. He felt the separation as a man from God the Father. I am not going down that argument here by the way, so no need to say it. He knew hell so we won't have to. Just like He was sacrificed and spilled His own blood so we won't have to. He lived in poverty, so we won't have to. He took on sin, so we don't have to. It pleased the Father to crush His Son so we won't have to go through it. He did all of that so we can stand righteous without blame or blemish.

Paul G said...

Hi Tim, Romans 9:11, "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to election might stand,"
And in (Rom. (9:13), "Just as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Yes, love and hate could and does exist for the same person, but not at the same time. Sometimes a person loves another person in the beginning and later it can turn into a fervent hate.

And yes, Esau loved Jacob, but that was not so with God, God hated Esau.
Now the reason for God to hate Esau was the election factor, and to give love its power as I have said in a previous comment.

Concerning hell; once an old preacher said, 'when you are in hell, you surely know it.' and, 'when you are going through hell, keep on going,' :-)

In my understanding I think that when a person is suffering intensely, perhaps being buried alive in a earthquake, or being in agony with a sickness etc. that to me is hell.
Perhaps, have a look in Syria, if that is not hell for some, then what is ?
You see, God passes the cup of His wroth among the nations because of their wickedness.
Tell me, does God love them when He rains fire and brimstone on a nation ?
And remember, it is God who does ALL things ALONE (Isa. 44:24).

Tim said...

Paul, thank you for supplying the scripture. I honestly don't think I ever studied that before. I appreciate you finding that for me. To me it doesn't change the original posting of what I am saying but I now see your point. (although the word here is "miseo" which can also mean "love less" and not straight up "hate")

You stated you can have love and hate for the same person, how can that be? You either hate them or love the right? OR...you can love them and hate what they do or have become.

Now comes a question, how many people does God hate and not love at all?

I like what you're saying about hell.

But does He love those He rains on, even fire and brimstone? I would still say yes. Because we view death and pain differently than God does I believe. We see it sometimes as the final destination in life. Once it happens it's over. That's why we cry, miss people, and have anger when death comes. If we viewed life from more of a spiritual level then death is different. They were wicked, God loved them. He gave them the law to show He wanted reconciliation with them. He sent Jesus to show us He love us. But if we reject these things then He hates what we do.

But again thank you for the scripture. I will keep looking at it and see where it leads me with Esau and Jacob.

Paul G said...

Tim, I think we all find it is easy to believe that God can and does hate a really evil and wicked man (Ps. 11:5 + Ps. 26:5 etc.)
But when it comes for God to hate someone who hasn't transgressed in any form or way, we find that difficult to take. But that is necessarily for us, so as to understand the power of love and the power of God in everything.

Perhaps, look in all God's creation, everything has an opposite and without an opposite there would be no meaning.

You see, "love less", really means HATE. It means LESS love, the absence of love, or, love not included.
Love cannot be amalgamated, it cannot be mixed together with hate. It's just like fire and water, or water and oil, they always will be separate.

As for God's hatred; God does not major on hate, that is because He is love, but He makes it clear to them them that He hates, first through His Word the Bible and then with His judgement and His wroth.

But to them that He loves, He forgives their sins and dies for their transgressions and gives them a FREE GIFT which is life and eternal life :-)
You see, all the good things are for us, because He FIRST loved us :-) (1 John 4:19)


Oops, nearly forget, you said, "If we viewed life from more of a spiritual level then death is different. They were wicked, God loved them. He gave them the law to show He wanted reconciliation with them. He sent Jesus to show us He love us. But if we reject these things then He hates what we do."

Again, we need to believe what the Lord has said, "that He hates the wicked" (Ps. 11:5 + Ps. 5:5).
When He hates the wicked, that does not mean that He loves them and only hates their wicked deeds, to the contrary, when He punishes the wicked, He throws the wicked PERSON with their deeds into hell.

Also, God didn't sent someone else to show that He loves us, but rather He came into this world and told us by Himself that He loves us and demonstrated on the cross His love for us, while we were yet sinners Jesus Christ died for us.

Tim said...

So should we "hate the sin and hate the sinner"? I agree that God hates sin and detests when a person does these things. But I don't think He loses the love for people. 1 Peter 3:18 said He died once for all, righteous and unrighteous. Why would He die for those he "hated"?

Less love does not mean "hate". You added your own ideas to that. Less love means just that...not love as much---less of it, not the absence of it.

If God IS love then how CAN He hate? I feel when He says He hates the wicked, it means those who do wicked things are wicked. I don't think He hates people just because they are born. I do see your point about Esau, I just don't think it really means what the English version says.

Paul G said...

Tim, I think that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, therefore we ought to love our brother as He loves us. You know, even our enemies, and also do good to them :-)

Less love does not mean not love as much, you also have added your own idea to that.
Can you see, the Scriptures does not say or mean 'love less'. The Scriptures said 'hate', therefore our own interpretation is excluded and we need to believe what it says.

God hates some people because they are born of the evil one (the devil) (1 John 3:12), which is the election factor.
And because of election, God loves all of His children who are born of God, and He died only for them (His children) and not for the devils children.

Just think, if God atoned for the sins of everyone without exception, then everyone's sins are forgiven, and God can't charge them again, otherwise it would be double jeopardy.

You see, even in the atonement, there has to be an opposite, otherwise the atonement has no meaning, just like love without hate has also no meaning.

Tim said...

If we love our enemies, isn't that the same thing as God loving His enemies? Why would we love them if God does not love His?

Yes. I did add some of this as my idea, that is what a blog is all about. But there are pieces of scripture when translated that does back my idea. You can't rely on English like you do all the time. There is a reason why God chose certain words. Man translated pieces of scripture sometimes very weakly or vaguely. Such as go here: Ark of the Covenant

The word Ark and Tomb are the same thing but if you only use English they sound nothing alike in terms of meaning.

When you say born of the evil one, do you mean created by him or just acts like him?

I didn't say it was without exception. He did die for all of us. We do have to accept it though. FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, not just parts of it.

Paul, keep in mind, I am not trying to prove you wrong, but only discussing the issue. I hope that is how you are taking it.

Paul G said...

Tim, the Lord commands us to love OUR enemies, but NOT God's enemies. The psalmist said, "Do I not hate those who hate You O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with the utmost hatred; they have become my enemies." (Ps. 139:21-22)

Those are very strong words :-)
But that is the reality for every man of God.
You see, we really hate all those who hate the Lord Jesus, but many of us would not say that because we rather love the praises of man.

Yes Tim, I think that those blogs are very good to stir our hearts and to expand the borders of our understanding.

1 John 3:12, 'born of the evil one' means, that they were born of Satan (the Serpent), or, that Satan is their father, their natural father and their spiritual father. They are the none elect, the children of the devil.


'For God so loved the world', do you mean everybody in the whole world ?
Well, He does not.
Remember, He hated Esau and the wicked, therefore the world does not mean everybody.
I think that the Lord loved His own (John 13:1) "....... having loved His own who were in the world ….".
Therefore the Lord Jesus did not die for all, but only for those He loves, the elect.

Remember, there also must be an opposite just like love, otherwise His death has no meaning.

You know me Tim, I always love a good debate :-)

Tim said...

Paul,

I feel you are twisting some things here. What is the difference between our enemies and God's enemies? Are you saying we should love those who hate us but God doesn't love those who hate Him? Why would He tell us to do something but not do it Himself? It seems as though God would be a hypocrite if that is the case.

I don't care about praises of man and I call things as I see them, but I am supposed to love all people. Jesus commanded it. He did not say Love your enemies, and those who persecute you...unless I hate them too.

I do not believe that satan is the actual, natural father of any man.

Let's clarify one major thing I feel you are saying. Are you saying that God does hate certain people?

Paul G said...

Tim, the commandments are for you and for me but not for the Lord.
He commanded us to love our neighbors and our enemies, but He didn't commanded us to love His enemies.

Well, do you hate the enemies of God (the Lord Jesus Christ) ?
If you say NO! Then why NOT ?
Psalm 139:21 – 22, every man of God hated the enemies of God. The whole Old Testament is full of the mighty man of God who utterly destroyed all the enemies of God, perhaps just read David and his doings and all the other men of God.

You said, 'I do not believe that satan is the actual, natural father of any man.'
Perhaps you should read the fall of man in Genesis chapter 1 and 2, or believe what Jesus has said in John 8:44.

And yes, I am saying that the Lord hates certain people. He has made that very clear by saying that He hated Esau.
As for us, we have to believe what He actually has said and not how we feel or think.

If we carefully read the Scriptures, then Lord Jesus will lead us into all the truth and then we will know why He destroys His enemies in hell.
Well, I don't think that the Lord throws them into hell because He loves them, don't you agree with me ?

Tim said...

No. I do not hate them. First of all you quoted Old Testament. I am under the New Covenant. I am not under the Law but under Grace. I do hate the sin of this world. I hate the actions of those who do them. But I know Jesus died for them too. I know they were created in the image of God. Jesus was not talking about actual sons FROM satan but the message they were giving and their actions were of satan. You need to add the verses before that before you can make a statement about John 8:44. He was speaking to people who believed in Him as well. He told them if they continue then they are His. But He knew some would not. He was clearly making an analogy of what people do and why. satan is not the father of any human. He is not part of the creator. He does not have that kind of power. Cain is not born from satan. As a matter of fact satan tried to kill man period. After Adam gave him the keys to the earth that was supposed to be ours satan was cursed to be crushed by the seed of woman. Throughout history he has been trying to destroy the seed of Eve (Christ' line). He had no clue which one was the chosen one. Remember even Cain brought a sacrifice to God. It wasn't pleasing to God because it was done in the wrong manner. satan thought Abel was the chosen seed so he got into Cain's head since Cain was already upset about the sacrifice. He though Cain could destroy the seed. He killed Abel. But the seed was not of Abel, it was of Seth.

If the Lord hates certain people, then how do we know which ones He loves? How do you know that He loves you and not hates you? After all if He hates you before you were born then you may be living for Him for nothing. He may hate you and you don't know it.

Of course not! His enemies CHOOSE to be that way. He hates the sin and can not be with those who CHOOSE to hate Him. This is why He will separate Himself from those who CHOOSE to live like that. He loves all. He died for all, or is that scripture a lie (Romans 6:10)? He loved the WORLD (John 3:16) not just part of it. John 3:17 says He came to save the WORLD, not just part of it. John 12:47 says that if ANYONE hears His words, not just a few. 1 Timothy 1:15 says Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And we know all of us are sinners. But by His blood if we believe and listen to His words then we are covered by grace and are made righteous.

Paul G said...

Yes Tim that is a good question and I think that everyone should ask that question.
How do you know whether your wife loves you ?
Well, I guess the only way you know is, if she tells you that she loves you and by her actions. That is the same with God the Lord Jesus Christ.

As for me, it was the Lord Jesus Christ who told me that he has loved me with an everlasting love, therefore with band of kindness He has drawn me unto Him.

You said, 'Of course not! His enemies CHOOSE to be that way. He hates the sin and can not be with those who CHOOSE to hate Him. This is why He will separate Himself from those who CHOOSE to live like that. He loves all. He died for all, or is that scripture a lie (Romans 6:10)? He loved the WORLD (John 3:16) not just part of it. John 3:17 says He came to save the WORLD, not just part of it. John 12:47 says that if ANYONE hears His words, not just a few. 1 Timothy 1:15 says Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And we know all of us are sinners. But by His blood if we believe and listen to His words then we are covered by grace and are made righteous.'

To answer that, we would need to have a good debate about the salvation doctrine. If Jesus died for everybody, then everybody must be saved, otherwise Jesus died needlessly and His death has NO redemption power.
Even as love has an election purpose, so also there must be an election purpose in His redemption. Meaning that Jesus died only for ALL the elect and not for the none elect (rejects).
Also, Esau didn't CHOOSE to hate the Lord; remember, the Lord Jesus hated him in the womb before they had done good or evil in order that election might stand.

Tim said...

Paul,
I know my wife loves me because of the things she does and says and how she responds to me. But her love for me is conditional. She wasn’t born loving me. I had to win her over. God loves me before I was born. He knew me in my mother’s womb. Before I was born Jesus died for me. It was unconditional. But as for me having salvation, which is different than love, I have to accept what He did.

How did Jesus tell you if you don’t mind answering? If He spoke to you, don’t worry about me, I believe God talks to people. If it is scripture then tell me which verses do that. What kindness are you referring to because many people have been shown “kindness”.

You said If Jesus died for everybody, then everybody must be saved, otherwise Jesus died needlessly and His death has NO redemption power.

Yes and no. Some actually believe that all men are saved; universal restoration. I can’t really accept that but the Bible does say that it is His will that all men be saved. But if all people do not accept His death then technically yes His death was for nothing. But that is part of God’s love. Do you think He didn’t know there would be some who rejected Him? Of course He did, and He did it anyway. He gave us an opportunity to accept Him. He showed us His perfect love by dying for us. He knew some would say no to Him and He still did it. That is love. That is sacrifice…to say I am still willing to die for you---all of you.

You said, Even as love has an election purpose, so also there must be an election purpose in His redemption. Meaning that Jesus died only for ALL the elect and not for the none elect (rejects).

Please show me scripture where He did ONLY for the elect. What does John 3:16-17, John 12:47, Romans 6:10 mean to you? Even in English it says ALL or is INCLUSIVE of the world. He died for ALL, but we have to accept it. It is a covenant. Both sides are involved. He does something, we do the other. He died, we accept. He is faithful because He still died. We are sinners because we reject Him. Some of us are redeemed because we accept the covenant.

Who said Esau hated the Lord? I agree that there is scripture that has those words in it about Esau but again the English language did not do the right thing. My point remains about how love and “like” are not the same. Like and hate are opposite. Less love does not mean hate.

Paul G said...

Tim, 'less love', has to mean hate.
Less love, is loveless, meaning without love, LESS = (without) love.
That is a clear statement of the Lord about Esau and all the wicked.

I can understand why you would have a problem with that, and the reason is, because you don't know why the Lord Jesus hated Esau. You think, how can God hate someone without him having done something bad, (while still in the womb).

As for me, God appeared to me nearly two thousand years after His resurrection from the death and He has personally told me that He loves me.
The Bible doesn't say that God loves Paul or Timothy or anyone else, to assume that is a great error.
The Bible said, for God so loved the world.
Now, to assume that the world means EVERYBODY is the same great error as to assume that God loves everybody even though He said that He hated Esau.
And I should also say that it is the same error, as to say that Jesus died for everybody in the whole world, even though He said that He laid down His life for the SHEEP and not for the wolves (John 10:11 – 15) and in (51 -52) he said, that He died to gather the CHILDREN abroad.

Can you see, there must be an opposite (election), otherwise the doctrine is not true.
The death of Jesus has NOTHING to do with what we do or believe. The death of Jesus is His finished work at Calvary, we cannot add or take away, because it is finished.

Perhaps like, if you owe the Bank a few billion Dollars and there is no way for you to pay that back.
But then Jesus comes along and says to you, because you are My beloved son, therefore I HAVE paid all of your debt to the Bank and you owe them nothing any more, you are free.

Now, it doesn't matter what you think or what you believe or what you do, now you are DEBT-FREE, that is the fact. The bank is happy that they got their money and from whom, they don't care as long as they got their money.

The word 'ALL', does NOT necessary mean everybody, all mankind without exception. It can means ALL of whom it may concern.
If Jesus died for ALL of His children (John 10:11 - 15), then Jesus died for all, but the 'all' refers to His children and not to Satan's children.
And if Jesus died for ALL mankind without exception, then He died for nobody in particular and His death has paid for no ones sins in particular, since many are those who are in hell. And worst of all, salvation would not depend on the death of Christ, it depends on someone BELIEVING a story whether true or false.


Yes, it is as you have said, that there are some who believe that all men are saved, but then again, a lot of people believe a lot of things.
As for us, we need to believe the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ and of the Apostles.

Tim said...

Paul,

Less love does not have to mean hate. Let's make two assumptions, one you are happily in love with your wife (I think you're married so I believe that is a safe assumption) and two you love pizza. Would you say you love pizza less or just as much as your wife? If you hopefully said you love pizza less then does that mean you hate it? No. You love it less. Or you "like" it less because you shouldn't love pizza. Love should not be an emotion for food. You hopefully wouldn't die for pizza.


I appreciate your witness as to why you feel God loves you. I believe it is powerful and real, but can't you see that anyone can say that? And they should be able to because if they fell God's love then they know. This story of the resurrection is for all. He told that to Nicodemus personally. He said it to Martha. He said it to you and me. He says it to all but we need to believe. AND WHOEVER!!! WHOEVER!!!!! WHOEVER!!!! believes shall not perish.

You said, "The Bible doesn't say that God loves Paul or Timothy or anyone else, to assume that is a great error."

Wow. I will just let that go.

John 3:16 in original Greek: gar houtōs theos agapaō ho ho kosmos didōmi ho monogenēs hyios
ho hina pas ho pisteuō eis autos mē apollymi alla echō aiōnios zōē.

John 3:16 from original Hebrew: כי אלוהים כל כך אהב את העולם שהוא נתן את בנו היחיד ואת כל מי מאמין בו לא ימות אבל יש חיי נצח

There is so much here it is unbelievable. I will only mention a few. KOSMOS!!! Means ALL in existence! So when Jesus said this he was referring to ALL. In the Hebrew it is OLAM HAZEH means the world and the Hebrew knew that mean everything inclusive upon the earth.

The word "pas" means ALL. In Hebrew we get the word "whosoever" or "anyone", again which means all.

ALL Paul...AAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL.


John 10:51 -52 he said, that He died to gather the CHILDREN abroad. ??????? There is no verse in John 10 that goes up to 50 is there?

You said, "Can you see, there must be an opposite (election), otherwise the doctrine is not true...The death of Jesus has NOTHING to do with what we do or believe. The death of Jesus is His finished work at Calvary, we cannot add or take away, because it is finished...Perhaps like, if you owe the Bank a few billion Dollars and there is no way for you to pay that back...But then Jesus comes along and says to you, because you are My beloved son, therefore I HAVE paid all of your debt to the Bank and you owe them nothing any more, you are free...Now, it doesn't matter what you think or what you believe or what you do, now you are DEBT-FREE, that is the fact. The bank is happy that they got their money and from whom, they don't care as long as they got their money."

Amen and ok?????

You said, "And if Jesus died for ALL mankind without exception, then He died for nobody in particular and His death has paid for no ones sins in particular, since many are those who are in hell. And worst of all, salvation would not depend on the death of Christ, it depends on someone BELIEVING a story whether true or false."

I don't see it that way. That's like saying since He died for you then He didn't really die for me. And yes it does depend on if we believe...Jesus said that. IF you BELIEVE, you can be healed. IF you BELIEVE, your faith has made you well. Believe in Him and call on His name and you will be saved. His death is just the fulfillment of the Old Testament needing blood for the covenant. That is not to lessen its importance. Without Him dying then there is no covenant. Without our belief then we are not saved.

Paul G said...

Tim,
Again, God is love ! God is NOT loveless and neither is He love diminished.

If God is love and would not hate, then we would not and we could not know the love of God, that is because we would have nothing to compare.

Well Tim, you really don't love pizza, you should rather say that you LIKE pizza, love is not like and like is not love, otherwise the Lord should have said the He didn't liked Esau.


Yes, that was a misprint on my behalf, I should have said John 11:51 – 52, that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not only for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the CHILDREN of God who are scattered abroad.

Concerning his death; I am saying that Jesus died for ALL of His CHILDREN and for none of Satan's children.
The same as, 'for God so loved the world', meaning that God so loved His CHILDREN who are in the world and none of Satan's children.

Can you see, everything must have an opposite, otherwise it has no meaning to us.
The same is with 'CHILDREN'; if God has children, then there must be children who do not belong to God (like Satan's children). Satan's children belong to Satan just as Jesus has said, and God's children belong to God.
Also opposites, if all would be God's children, then there is nothing to compare and it would mean nothing to us.

If the death of Jesus has NOT purchased you, then you don't belong to Jesus no matter whether you believe or not believe, simply, because Jesus did not redeemed you and you don't belong to Him.
If the death of Jesus HAS purchased you from the domain of Satan, then you belong to Him who has redeemed (purchased) you which is to God (Jesus).
Does it matter whether you believe or not believe ?
The answer is NO ! It has absolutely nothing to do with you, it has everything to do with the one who bought you and you belong to Him, which is to Jesus Christ the Lord.

That is what it means to be saved by GRACE alone, otherwise we would boast in our believing or faith etc.

Tim said...

Paul,

There is hardly one word of that I would agree with. It seems like that whole post was an excuse for why you believe things. It's ok to step back and say (like I did), "wow, I will think about it". I can't comment on many things here because it is so far off I couldn't finish.

You said, "Again, God is love ! God is NOT loveless and neither is He love diminished."

That I agree with. The rest...no. I will shorten things for you:
1) We compare love from humans with love of God
2) I said you shouldn't use love for pizza but you know what I mean anyway---stall tactic
3) He did say He didn't like Esau bu saying He liked him less.
4) Yes Caiaphas prophesied that, that doesn't help your point at all. Because in Matthew 5:44-45 says "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven." So that you MAY BE the sons of your Father. SO THAT YOU CAN BECOME ONE!!!!!!!!!!! ANYONE!!!!! ALL!!!!!
5) satan has no part of creation, period
6) You translated John 3:16 incorrectly, even in English it doesn't say what you are saying
7) Not everything has an opposite but even if it did I already explained what they were in my original post. Everything having an opposite is Buddhism.
8) How do you know if Jesus purchased you? He purchased all.
9) It does matter if you believe. Can someone kill, slander, lie, cheat, steal, and all kinds of things and never believe but still be part of the elect you talk about?
10) Yes people boast of faith and they shouldn't but what benefit do people have from your point? Why would God do that to people?

Wow...

No Doubt said...

I know that I am late to the game, but the scriptures reveal that there are varying levels of love. Once none of these exists, there is hate.

As long as any level of love can be found within your heart, you are not loveless. Therefore,hate is not in your heart. Once love is absent, there is hate.

All those who read God's Word, knows that the levels of love is Eros, Phileo, Ludus, Agape, Pragma and Philautia. The problem comes from not understanding this.

The scriptures clearly show that God has a totally committed, selfless, long suffering love, agape, for all mankind. It's a no brainer that God doesn't always have a phileo love for us, especially when we fall short of his expectations.

Paul G said...

Tim,
Point 2. it's not what you mean, it's what you say.
Point 3. Jesus said that He hated Esau (Rom. 9).
Point 5. I'm not sure what you mean.
Point 6. (John 3:16) I think that my translation has more weight than any other because it contains election.
Point 7. You cannot know the truth unless you know the lie (opposite).
Point 8. If Jesus would have purchased ALL, then ALL would belong to God. However, some do NOT belong to God just as Jesus has said, they belong to their father the devil.
Point 9. I agree with you, it really does matter that we believe. But equally does it matter in WHOM we believe.
Point 10. Simply, 'in order that election might stand'. As I previously have said, that if a doctrine does NOT contain 'election', then the doctrine is NOT true.
Point 4. Yes Tim, that's exactly what what we are doing, don't we ?
And NO, it doesn't say that you can BECOME a son to God, just the same as you cannot become a son to the Queen of England no matter how hard you try :-)

Paul G said...

Brother Keith, you are welcome at any time !
Unlike Tim, I maintain the position that the opposite of love is hate, therefore if hypothetically there would be a lesser level of love, the level of hate would increase in proportion.

Well my friend, where in the Bible does it say that God is SELFLESS ?
In fact the whole Bible is speaking about 'God' who demands that you Worship Him ALONE, that you believe in Him alone and serve Him alone etc. everything was created for HIM and by HIM.
Everything is about JESUS and you better believe in Him, for He is the alpha and the omega, the first and the last etc.
Does that sound selfless ?

Tim said...

Paul,

The only thing we agree on is not to love pizza. And apparently point 1. I will not circulate the Esau point. It's been hashed and rehashed.

About points 5 and 8---You have said that some are children of satan. satan cannot create. satan cannot procreate. satan cannot be a physical father to anyone. You think he was part of the creation story, he is not. When God said in our image, notice He says in our image as in ONE. You have claimed Cain was satan's child if I remember correctly. Maybe that wasn't you. But God does not say our images, as in plural. If it was one image and if satan had the same image then that equates him with God, and with God there is no equal--hence something do not have an opposite. Jesus is clearly talking spiritually about satan being a "father".

About point 6--- You added "election" to John 3:16.

About point 9. I know where you are going with that and I am not taking the bait.

About point 10. So God created billions and billions and billions of people but He will never give them a chance to accept Him?

About point 4. Yes Tim, that's exactly what what we are doing, don't we? I hope so, but how am I one? I can become a son of the Queen by adoption. But again, this is clearly spiritual.

No Doubt said...

Hi Paul,

You said, "Well my friend, where in the Bible does it say that God is SELFLESS?"

I think what Y'shua did on the cross is a great example of selfless love. Besides that, God being holy and righteous should have wipe humanity completely from the scene, when Eve sinned and Adam followed. However, he put his creation first and supplied us a reconciliation plan, through his Son.

I totally agree that God is first and foremost and rightly so. He is the only one worthy of our Praise. However, there are many cases where God has showed a selfless love for us and push the right of his Holy Nature aside, for mankind.

No Doubt said...

By the way, a slight correction. Y'shua/Jesus didn't say that he hated Esau. That was God, in Malachi 1:1-3.

"A prophecy, the word of Yah-Ehyeh to Isra’el through Mal’akhi:

“I love you,” says Yah-Ehyeh.
But you ask, “How do you show us your love?”
Yah-Ehyeh answers, “Esav was Ya‘akov’s brother.
Yet I loved Ya‘akov, but hated Esav.'"


God only hates those who refuse the gift of inheritance, that is provided through the Torah, fulfilled by Y'shua sacrifice, on the cross/stake. Once you look at the scriptures, without a western bent on it, it becomes clear on what the idiom means. Because of his Righteous Holiness, it is God nature to detest those who refuse a righteous gift, such as salvation through his Son, Y'shua.

Paul G said...

No Tim, we don't agree, I don't love pizza, I love the Lord my God Jesus Christ and I LIKE pizza.
There is a difference between like and love and you should know that.

Point 5-8... that's right, Satan cannot CREATE children but he can reproduce children or make children just like you and I.
You and I we cannot CREATE children, but we can make children. Our sons have been reproduced by us.

You need to read Genesis carefully or you will miss it.
Gen. 1:25, God said, 'Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness,'
Can you see, there are TWO who make; not just one.
And those TWO made TWO man, and each man was made in each ones separate image and separate likeness which is TWO image and likeness.
TWO makers, TWO man, TWO image and likeness (opposites) :-)
I did NOT say two creators.

If you keep on reading, you will see that ONE man and his image was made in the likeness of Jesus Christ which is Adam, the first Adam (ONE image), in the image of God and His likeness, Adam.

Now the second ONE who made man had a different image and a different likeness to the image and likeness of God (Jesus Christ).
His image and likeness is the animal, called the beast, the serpent (Gen. 3:1).
And in Genesis 3:14 – 15 you can see how the serpent (the devil) seduced Eve, and produced or made his first son Cain who was born of the evil one (1 John 3:12).

And thus the TWO man and the TWO image and likeness were completed, Adam and Cain, and the fall man was established.
Eve became the MOTHER of ALL living (Gen 3:20), of Adams children and the serpents children.

Because Cain murdered his halve brother Abel, Adam wanted a son who was in his own image and not in the animals image (Gen. 5:3).
Here you can see that Cain was a different image as to Abel's image (opposite), that's why Adam wanted a son in his own likeness or image.

Point 10. You can NOT accept God, who do you think that you are ?
Can you accept a KING ? Certainly NOT !
It is the other way around Tim. The King might accept you if it pleases him, and Jesus Christ is the KING of Kings.

Point 4. No Tim, the spiritual goes parallel to the natural. If you can't do it in the natural then you can't do it in the spiritual. If you can't become a son to a natural King, neither can you become a son to the spiritual KING of Kings Jesus Christ the Lord.
Haven't you read, that we were in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world ?

Paul G said...

Hi Keith, how can you say that ?
You don't believe that GOD went to the cross, you believe that God sent somebody else to the cross.

Malachi 1:1 – 3, "was not Esau Jacobs brother ? Yet I have loved Jacob,"
Obviously He said in another passage that He hated Esau, and even in that passage He said that He hated Esau, you just need to have ears to hear :-)

No no my friend, you can't refuse the gift of God.
The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord and you can NOT refuse that gift.
It's NOT your choice, it's a free gift Keith.
A free gift is that which is in you possession, and if it is NOT in your possession, then it is NOT a free gift.
Look my friend you just don't understand the Scriptures, who has been your teacher all those years ?

Tim said...

Paul, I am going to nit-pick here. And the only reason why I am is to show how you don't really read things. I said we agree NOT to love pizza and should only like it and here you say, "No Tim, we don't agree, I don't love pizza, I love the Lord my God Jesus Christ and I LIKE pizza."

And then you say, "There is a difference between like and love and you should know that." And you should know that is what I have been saying.

Satan cannot physically have children.

I need to read Genesis? My whole life starts with Genesis. I am one of the biggest arguers for the book of Genesis. Again, you didn't read what I posted. I will use the same exact scripture and you tell me who is reading it wrong.

Gen. 1:25, God said, 'Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness, You say there are two who make. That is incorrect. OUR just means plural, it could be two, three, 9000, or infinite. You added "two" for your benefit. IMAGE (notice as I said before) is singular!!!!!! ONE IMAGE!! How can one man be two images? You stated satan cannot create yet here you are saying he was helping in creation . Plural noun, singular verb! Can you see it? One God yet plural. How can you NOT see it? If you think satan had part in creation you have elevated him to the level of God, talk about blasphemy.

You said, "I did NOT say two creators." Creator and maker are synonyms. Image and likeness are synonyms.

You said, "And in Genesis 3:14 – 15 you can see how the serpent (the devil) seduced Eve, and produced or made his first son Cain who was born of the evil one (1 John 3:12)." Did you see the first part where it said Adam lay with his wife and she became pregnant in 4:1 and that is when Cain was born? You added the whole thing in and again that border lines blasphemy. The fall of man was in Adam not Cain. The rest of your Cain idea is just wacky.

What do you mean I can't accept God? I accepted Him. Again by your standards how do you know Christ accepted you?????

You said, "Point 4. No Tim, the spiritual goes parallel to the natural. If you can't do it in the natural then you can't do it in the spiritual." Are you kidding me? You just equated the created universe with the realm of the Creator. You have it backwards. Spiritual is more powerful than anything natural.

You said, "Haven't you read, that we were in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world?" Yes and in the same verses right before it said we have spiritual blessings. It doesn't talk about natural blessings in that passage. That Paul knew the truth. Do you think Heaven is a natural/earthly place? Apparently you do if it has to happen naturally.

The more I listen to you the more it disturbs me. If I had to worship your god then I don't know if I would. He hates me. He doesn't allow me any choice. He allowed satan to be my father. He didn't die for me. His equal is evil since they are opposite. You're really screwed up in that mind Paul. You don't even know that Jesus died for you. All you can do is "believe" and "hope" you are part of the elected because in the end you don't know by your standards. All you can do is say the scripture tells you, but anyone can "read" the scripture. You have to know God. And that is a choice. You will know God loves you if you accept His love. Then all these things will be added to you. You cut out things and add things that are just not there.

Please do not start the trinity debate here. I know you really want to but I am not going down that circular road with you.

Tim said...

PS: I guess you hate pizza since you don't love it.

No Doubt said...

Paul, You definitely jump from subject to subject. :-)

You said,"You don't believe that GOD went to the cross, you believe that God sent somebody else to the cross. ''

I never said that. God's Spirit was withY'shua, until the moment Y'shua was made sin for us. At that point, God withdrew himself from Y'shua, prompting the response,"My God,My God, why have you left me. Why have you abandoned me?" This also shows you that Jesus could not be the Father, because God cannot become sin. It's against his perfect righteousness and sinless nature.

As for salvation, it is a choice. The falacy of election is revealed by looking at Gods Nature. If he chose you to be saved, then he chose the others to sin and reject him. That my friend is against God's nature.

Tim said...

We are not going down the road of is Jesus God and is the Trinity real or not. That is not the topic. So I will not publish anymore posts about that topic here. Please respond to the subject at hand. Love and Hate are not opposite.

No Doubt said...

You are right, Tim. I got snookered into that one and didn't even notice that I got snookered. :-) LOL

No Doubt said...

Just to clarify Ephesians 1:4-5 is better translated, without bias and and doctrinal devotion, as:

Even choosing us as his, before his seed, the heavenly and worldly hosts, to be presented holy and without blemish, in his presence, through love, determining us beforehand to be adopted as sons by Y'shua ha Mashiach unto himself according to the benevolence of Gods Love and Purpose.

No Doubt said...

I'm sorry, I am slowly getting through your comments. I just got to the one about the usage of "us".

Keep in mind God's word specifically uses Elohim, as gods name, during the Genesis account. We, as four-dimensional beings, cannot comprehend the multidimensionality of God. That's why God gave Moses, Ehyeh, as his name. God is saying I AM.

Elohim, actually means gods, not Gods. If "us" means God and Satan and possibly every Tom, Dick and Harry, then we must apply that to all the creation account. It doesn't take long to realize that that is preposterous. "Us" is either indicative of gods multidimensionality or is being used empirically.

A great example of this, is dad saying, "Let US drive down to the ice cream shop." That doesn't mean we are all driving the car. It just means that there were witnesses or others there with God, during the Genesis account, most likely B'nai Elohim, angels.

Getting back to the love subject of this post, gods multidimensionality extends to the love that he expresses. There are varying degrees of love. Therefore, there is no opposite of love, in God'a reality, just varying degrees. Hate is the absence of all love.

Tim said...

Thank you. And with that this Thought may be done. Love has no opposite. To say there is an opposite is to say that there is something just as strong s love. Since God is love and if there is something as strong as love then one would be saying that there is something as strong as God. There is nothing.

Love has no equal or opposite. The absence of love is the closest we have. And when love is not there then nothing gets done in the right way---apathy, as I have stated.

Like and hate are opposites, just not in the mind of man's brain that uses a dictionary as authority. My Thought was not suppose to taken that deep but just to show that if we have love then we would and should do things.

This Thought is now closed.

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