Welcome, ברוך הבא, Welkom, Добро пожаловать, Bienvenue, Bienvenido, 歓迎, υποδοχή

This site is dedicated to those who are serious about what Christian life is all about. This is a place to discuss modern Church and life issues. You can leave an anonymous comment if you feel the need. All comments are moderated. All posts will be answered. No requirements are needed.

If you want to study Biblical lessons click here http://ideasoftimbible.blogspot.com/

Sunday, December 13, 2009

XLV. The Dark Side

Close your eyes for 5 seconds and reopen them. Go ahead, no one is watching. What did you see? Nothing right? But was there really nothing there? No. There was something. There was still a thought going through your mind somehow. There may have been a memory flashing in. There may have been sound on the outside that you could hear. The wind was blowing somewhere. Electricity was flowing from one place to another. Your blood was still pumping. There is more than just darkness. Even though you shut your eyes and saw nothing there were things still going on around because in this universe there is no such thing as nothing!

Have you ever thought about what nothing (real nothing) is? It is void of all known things. Time, space, dimensions, laws are all void in a real nothing. It is something we really can not comprehend because we are in existence. But where did we come from? How did we come into existence? You know the answer. Just say it. God. What did He create us (the universe) out of? Nothing!!
But, some who read this may answer about where we come from as:
  1. primordial soup
  2. from something else
  3. it doesn't matter, it is nonsensical
  4. i don't know
Well, there are some problems with these answer. Let's take them one by one:
  1. Primordial soup-Everything that was made is a huge accident. The laws of the universe just by happen chance formed into consistency and never contradict each other. Out of chaos came harmony. We are here because for some reason an accident happened and we are now caught in this vast experience of existence created by...nothing. How can something so extensive in time, distance, and mass come out of nothing? It can't. There had to be something before something. Of course the atheist will cry foul here. Wait and listen for it. "who then made God?", "infinite regression", "the chicken or the egg?" To understand where the designer came from is not in the capability of the creation itself. A car can not understand the mechanic. A piece of art can not understand the artist. They are two totally different dimensional beings. Convenient isn't it, atheists, non-theists? But it is the truth. God was never designed. Again he is in a higher dimension we can not know until we are with him (or not). Time is a figment of man's imagination. It was made by man to separate days and nights, years and decades, to count his own days. God does not have time. He was always here and always will be. That is why he is called the great "I AM". Time does not really exist. We made it up.
  2. From something else-Humans came from a lower form of primate which came from a lower form of mammal which came from reptiles, amphibians, birds, fish...the amoeba. With each new species of development cam a higher form of intelligence and complexity. If we are so advanced then why all of the mutations that destroy people? Is that a higher form of species? No. Where is the newest form of primate? The only thing we keep finding are primates of the past. When will we see that next evolutionary process starting to take place? Plus, even if evolutionary process is accurate, then where did the first species come from? Oh yeah...see point #1.
  3. It doesn't matter. It is nonsensical. There was a big bang and that is it. Everything before this bang is irrelevant. Irrelevant to what? The beginning of our existence answers all the questions we have. If there is a God that created then we can trust the Bible and what it says. Jesus is LORD, Savior and will return. If there isn't a God then our whole lives are nonsensical. Why are we here? And if there isn't a God, how did we get here? Oh yeah...see point #2.
  4. I don't know. The best answer out of the four. At least it's something to work with and not argue about. It has no wrong conclusion and perhaps has an open ended process of learning about all of it.
Here is the point: those who do not believe in the existence of God are saying whether they admit it or not that this "something" we know as our entire existence, i.e.; time, life, space, etc., came out of nothing. Not the concept we know as nothing with our eyes shut but out of complete nothing, void of all things possible. Some will say that is not what they believe but there will not be another answer given. Now how is that saner than believing in a loving Creator who wanted us to love for Him and gave us a free will. This is where the "prove God exists" argument comes in. Read the following then: http://ideasoftimreligion.blogspot.com/2009/06/xxxiv-atheist.html

5 comments:

ExPatMatt said...

Hey Goz,

I thought I'd make a return-visit; hope I'm not intruding!

Where do we come from? It's a good question to be sure.

I learn towards answer #4, as do most atheists that I know.

The farthest back we can 'see' in our universe - and what we know about the way it works - leads most cosmologists to suggest that when time (as we know it) started there was a singularity that was everything.

I, personally, do not understand this, but that's what the experts think.

Now, there's nothing to say that this was an 'accident' nor is there anything to suggest that it was not an accident; it just was....and now we're here.

"How can something so extensive in time, distance, and mass come out of nothing? It can't".

Is that not the very definition of an argument from ignorance? You can't understand it - therefore it can't have happened.

Now, if you can engage in the special pleading that is required to allow your God to exist without time or anything else and then make the universe out of nothing, what's wrong with special pleading that says the universe just happened all by its very self? They both lack any actual evidence, so what's to pick between them?


"Humans came from a lower form of primate which came from a lower form of mammal which came from reptiles, amphibians, birds, fish...the amoeba".

Just a minor quibble, but birds are not in our ancestry. But other than that, this was fairly accurate.

"With each new species of development came a higher form of intelligence and complexity".

That's not necessarily true. All that is required to consider something 'higher' is that it is better adapted to survive the current environment.

"If we are so advanced then why all of the mutations that destroy people?".

What? Mutations that 'destroy people' are fairly rare and do very little to affect the success of the species as a whole. However, evolution does not mean that we should become invincible at some point - that's not how it works.

"Where is the newest form of primate?".

That would probably be us.

"The only thing we keep finding are primates of the past".

That's what happens when you dig in the ground looking for fossils, I guess!

"When will we see that next evolutionary process starting to take place?".

'Next evolutionary process'? When did evolution stop?

Cont...

ExPatMatt said...

"Plus, even if evolutionary process is accurate, then where did the first species come from? Oh yeah...see point #1".

Correct.

Your thesis seems to be;

'I don't understand how we got here...therefore it must have been the God of the Bible.'

Is that about right?

Cheers,

Gozreht said...

Matt,

I will never consider you an intruder.

Very well thought out. I like the way you think. I always have since the first time I read some of your stuff. Of ocurse we will not agree on much just given of what we know about each other so I am not saying these things to argue nor defend. I actually can't stand the philosophy of apologetics. I feel God is a personal God and speaks to us differently. But all of that is just an opening for you to try and say I will answer the best way I personally can. :)

I think most people who do not know much about God or have doubts about God will agree with you and answer #4. I have a problem with #1-3.

I also agree with a singularity. I agree with a "big bang" so to speak. In our dimension there was nothing and "it just was....and now we're here". But the most relevant question remains. How did it just get here? Now you think I choose God because it seems the "lesser of two evils", if you will (sorry God, I hope you forgive me for what I am saying). No. I see consistency with creation. I feel His Spirit in my life. I fear His authority. I have experienced life in both darkness and light. The light is more powerful and loving. I don't know Matt, it's hard to explain. I wish I could. Just understand this about me. I didn't come to my thinking based on ill-conceived ideas, laziness of intelligence, or because I have been brain washed. I believe God called me and I answered. Many people do not answer.

I also think people adapt to environment but not micro evolution. But you and I have talked about that before.

When I said mutations I mean if we are evolving, shouldn't we be able to defeat diseases by ourselves without the discovery of medicine and stuff? If we are actaully surviving due to being the fittest then how come more and more diseases are killing us off. Our bodies should be adapting. I may be wrong but I have not heard of humans doing that.

And my thesis is more like: I understand that God created so there is no other way.

Keep coming back and keep asking. I think people need to hear both sides of everything. And I will try and always answer back :)

Cheers back to you.

ExPatMatt said...

Goz,

I can totally appreciate that, from your point of view, it is blindingly obvious that God made everything - it must make all kinds of sense.

However, it's just not going to convince anyone that doesn't already believe. I'm afraid you're going to have to find the words to describe the indescribable....good luck with that!!

"When I said mutations I mean if we are evolving, shouldn't we be able to defeat diseases by ourselves without the discovery of medicine and stuff? If we are actaully surviving due to being the fittest then how come more and more diseases are killing us off. Our bodies should be adapting. I may be wrong but I have not heard of humans doing that".

The thing is, bacteria and virii are evolving too...

Imagine the human body to be a fort and diseases to be attacking armies.
You can continue to improve your defenses; install a moat, build a high wall, station archers along the parapet etc, but the invading forces will then build bridges, make ladders and carry shields to counter these devices.

That's what is known as the 'evolutionary arms race' and it never stops.

That's why you have to get a different flu shot every year (if you choose to, of course), the flu virus continually evolves - and at a faster rate than we do - so we have to artificially evolve the vaccine to keep pace.

Actually, the fact that they evolve faster than we do is what makes us so susceptible to diseases.

Anyway, the key lesson to take away from this seminar is that we're not the only ones who are evolving - everything else is too.

Gozreht said...

Matt,

Thank you for understanding and not ridiculing. I hope I show you the same consideration.

I would love to be able to convert people. But my mere words will never be enough to change someone's heart. I might add a thought into their head or two and give them something to think about but my words will not do it alone. An open mind and a heart willing to listen needs to be on the other end.

I can open a door to the other side and show someone the beauty of it all but if they are dead set against going through the door and say "no matter what I see or hear I will not enter" then I can not do it. But I really wish I could use words to describe how I feel. I will try to work on that.

I probably will never believe in evolution but even if that was true in all aspects and facts then it still comes down to "how did we all get here?". Even with all evolution theories aside, the original question of man still remains.

Thanks for your comment.

Follow by Email